Cardcaptor Sakura Mafia [Day Four]

Re: Sammiya

I saw some comments from you last night on Sammiya, though, again, I need to re-read because I was a bit drained. So uhh...

My first impression when I saw rollover was that mafia had stunned and killed Sammiya to negate her bulletproof. I forgot it was just a delayed bulletproof in that moment, and then seconds later Five said she stunned Sammiya, which threw me right the fuck off until I remembered Sammiya was delayed bulletproof, rather than just bulletproof.

If I'm honest, I found her claiming publicly in thread weird to begin with since that made no sense given the effects of her role (though I guess in this case it works out since... otherwise we would not have known?). But she's obviously flipped town, and so now I don't really know what to make of it in terms of what killed her. Because if you're mafia, why would you choose to just go and kill Sammiya? Especially if it's delayed (presuming the stun on her was a town Five, so they wouldn't have known about it). Like, even if your idea was to just get that out of the way so it's not a problem later on... She had a few of us questioning her, she's relatively quiet and complacent, and when you compare it to the other death, Kiyoko, it's just a really, really weird contrast of target selection.

I can buy Five stunning Sammiya just because she seemed suspicious for that claim (I don't remember what Five's reasoning was; again, need to re-read). The kill on her is strange, especially since we're relatively sure mafia lost their ability to check roles early on with Lucas... unless they have another effect, in which case RIP. But, the only way I could see Sammiya being deliberately targeted there is if they determined she actually had some sleeper OP role. Which, since it's Sammiya and she was probably truthful about her claim, she didn't have. Did she have anything other than delayed bulletproof? I can't remember exactly, though I'll check.

Ordinarily I'd say maybe she acted and got killed from it, but she was actually stunned and couldn't act. Unless someone has a "Stun/Kill Retaliation" effect, in which case Five would be lying about stunning Sammiya (directly, at least??), but presently I am not actively doubting Five, though I am curious about her (I have her as town-leaning, but still of interest; the only cleared person in thread to me is Mitsu, other than Rasei for the obvious reason).

So if she didn't act... I could see a vigilante shot from town acting on her, but no one claimed it. No one has insofar suggested there's a bus in-effect with having skewed actions, which I could see being in the game given "the change", and also the fact that given what's now coming to light re: active effects... if there's no stuns or jails, would there be redirects and busses to compensate? Though would a host put a bus in if there wasn't originally going to be the amount of stuns and jails we see right now? Like, to me having a bus for a thread that's predominantly invisible actions is just very screwy, whereas with visible actions you have a larger chance of detecting it being off.

The only explanation behind a redirect on Sammiya is if a town somehow sent the action to Sammiya and the mafia kill target was someone else, but then this would mean the stun also wasn't originally on Sammiya unless it was a one-way redirect. Five specifically said she targeted Sammiya, right? So it'd have to be one-way... so if it was a town redirect, at this point they would've said something since they'd either know the original target or that it was a result of their action, unless they had no way of knowing it'd happen (like... idk they have a role that randomly redirects elsewhere?).

Sammiya couldn't have been some sort of lightning rod because other role actions hit other targets, as well as a kill on Kiyoko, and plus a lightning rod + delayed death feels weird if there's a 90% chance you're going to attract a stun on top of a night kill, which then negates your delayed death.

It couldn't have been some auto-terminate related death, because I feel like Sammiya would've said that? Like, if her passive is ever stunned off she just dies? I doubt the host would make something like that, especially with all of these other vigilante and item killing effects?

I'm pretty stumped since no one has come forth claiming redirect, bus driver, vigilante, or anything of the sort, on top of her being directly stunned.

One other thing is that whatever the kill was, it wasn't a gun shot like yours where it's instant. It happened during rollover, and from what I remember the text also distinguished it from an item killing effect. So that was just a pure, "Kill someone during the night" sort of thing. The disparity between targets and the timing of it is weird. The best I can really say is that either mafia knew more about her role that she let on (which is terrifying btw, since it'd mean they might be able to learn more), or there was some form of redirection onto her, intended or otherwise, but I can't guess what alignment did it since it feels like it'd be a town thing to redirect onto Sammiya, yet no one has claimed it. And thus since no one is claiming that, then it's not a town vigilante onto a mafia being redirected onto Sammiya, because no one is claiming that either. And iirc the only people that haven't really commented insofar are those that were effectively vanilla last night.

So unless there's a town player involved in Sammiya's death that has not said anything at all about it, for whatever reason, I'm struggling to think of a scenario that makes sense because I do not see why mafia would target her last night unless they had some role detection in their pockets and investigated her N0 or silently N1, which isn't impossible, actually, though it feels like it's double-dipping with Lucas' purported role re: Chinomi's claims.

I just typed a lot and have no idea if I even said anything of value fuck me sideways.

Updated with the Stunner Saga, Chapter 2

nautilus wrote:

Spoiler:

Like, the other thing that I suppose could have happened with Sammiya is that Kiyoko acted, never announced her target because she is dead, and it still somehow went through? I asked the host about it but presumably because my action is immediate, I just got a vague "depends".

Tiki The Troll wrote:As for Lux's question, my PM just says I have tremendous speed, and I can run away from a kill or a lynch once.
Later on, lovely hosr started telling me she was concerned about the balance she had for the gamepresumably seeing how things would play out), and said she might give me something. I said she didn't need to, as I didn't want her worrying to much, and possibly trying patch the game more out of panic and maybe some sort of guilt than anything.

She did anyway, and I expressed my concerns with her again, but she reassured me that it was actually a removed feature of my role she just reimplemented. Talking about it a bit more, that's when she also told me the flavor, the reasoning behind the stun, heh.

Do you have any timestamps?

I want to compare these to Five's timestamps.

you can see from lux's post about the lie detector why lux herself was the only balance cap we needed on the question asking when she had it.

re: tiki's millerness. the dash is a perfect fit for a miller (cute and innocent appearance) so even if tiki flips town I'm going to believe he was mafia tbh.

I can also see the host deciding to use jailers instead of stunners, and then realizing the alternate ability for the "stunner" not panning out, changing it, and then changing a mafia role to match.

I think there's like a 0% chance that both five and tiki stunned plot. plot would never be tiki's first choice as a stun target.

nautilus wrote:Like, the other thing that I suppose could have happened with Sammiya is that Kiyoko acted, never announced her target because she is dead, and it still somehow went through? I asked the host about it but presumably because my action is immediate, I just got a vague "depends".

I thought of that for a moment, but then discarded it since Kiyoko also died and claimed to have had a... hm. Looking back on it, she says she chose a target and also who the target would redirect to, correct? Like, as far as we know from her claims, the two decisions were independent? Jeanne redirecting to herself was just Kiyoko's choice, rather than the role being forced to redirect one player to themself, right? (Edit: If she has to redirect a target onto itself, the following part is moot, I guess)

So...

What if Kiyoko redirected Player A onto Sammiya, figuring if it was a killing effect it'd be on the best known target for it. That'd... actually make sense. It fits in line with her redirecting Jeanne N0, too. The main question would be if it'd go off in the event she died.

Also, another possibility might be--without 100% knowing Kiyoko's role--if she had some form of personal redirect it might only negate a certain amount, meaning if mafia really wanted they might've tried to send two kills onto her and only one got redirected (basically, similar to how we would've had to kill her in Gakuen S2 by either stun + kill, or kill + kill). But, I think the other statement is more accurate and this isn't close to what happened. It's just another possible alternative, but from Kiyoko's statements it sounds like she gets to choose both the target that's redirected and the destination of this redirectee. So...

@ Five:

Can you ask the host if your stun would go through if you died the same phase you used it? You might have a better result than myself or Mitsu asking given the nature of your role.

What if Kiyoko redirected Player A onto Sammiya, figuring it'd if it was a killing effect it'd be on the best known target for it. That'd... actually make sense. It fits in line with her redirecting Jeanne N0, too. The main question would be if it'd go off in the event she died.

That's possible, but I think that Kiyoko's intentions with her role was to block the NK and determine the actions of players as psuedo-investigation. I feel like the main motivation of her targeting Jeanne N0 was to determine what Jeanne's role would be (therefore eliminating Jeanne from being any of the rollover actions) and also loop the NK back to mafia, given that Jeanne was relatively new and quiet and unlikely to talk enough to make their role evident to the thread at large.

I feel like if Kiyoko wanted to flush out the NK, she would loop it back upon its sender rather than deflecting it to a delayed bulletproof and effectively wasting their ability?

... I also think I've figured out what She-Ra's role is so I'm going to hold off on that point for now. I think. Don't claim, obviously, but... hrm.

Luxaria wrote:AHOST. PLS. Would it show a single stun on that target or two stuns?

oh, sorry I think I answered this to someone else on skype and forgot to make it public. It will show up as a single stun.

Luxaria wrote:re: Stunner I don't remember if Ninfia ever answered my question regarding what rollover would show if two stuns were on the same target. HOST. PLS. Would it show a single stun on that target or two stuns?

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I do want to see Tiki and then Five respond to the exact timeline of events since it might hammer out the veracity of this story, which... seems true since why would it be false? But then what that means for the active roles in this game. Idk.

"Exact timeline." What, do you want someone to say they got their roles on D1 or something? XD

Actually?
Know what?
There is absolutely nothing stopping this train at this point (not even the other claimed stunner helping to kill a Town, intentionally or otherwise XD), and the more info we have the better.

The reason I was most concerned Ninfia was giving me the stun back was out of guilt, or something similar, was because I was afraid she was feeling bad about all the people jumping on the "The Tiki silence is a trick."

Which, yes, means I didn't get the stun until D1.

Which, also yes, means I could not have stunned Plotsickers.

That was a grab in the hopes of saving myself after a very frustrating two days, one where I couldn't defend myself, another where I was frustrated to the point of apparently defending myself too much. After all, I could stun someone the next night to prove I'm a stunner, too...but with my role the way it is, and being given to me so late, the wording was funny.

The way Ninfia told me how it worked was I could use it every other night, meaning I could use it that night, and every odd numbered night afterward. I then sought clarifiaction if she meant I could only use it on odd nights, or just couldn't use it back to back.

As for why it would be compensation, well, again, we suddenly have a dedicated stunner role where there was none before, and my role was the stunner in earlier drafts. Beyond that, Ninfia was my only outlet for my silenced frustration that day (sorry if it ever got to be too much, heh), and I think she felt bad I got so horribly screwed by something beyond my own control, while also denying me a chance to really play (again, on my one day off, heh...which, considering I'm getting lynched today, and my next day off isn't till tomorrow, means I got to play this only on workdays XD). So I really worried I had unintentionally guilted her into buffing me for my misfortune.

So, yes, I'm sure Five, and only Five, stunned poor Plottie. I, meanwhile, was desperate bewcause the only suspects beyond Five, before her claim, were Bromigo (new guy said something off, but given the benefit of the doubt for being new), She-Ra (just some funny feelings, mostly by Grumpy-Pants Cure), and me (the WIFOM silence situation, which could really only be cleared up one way, and that is a ticket to the gallows).

Even if I hadn't gotten so frustrated and defensive, soon as Five claimed stunner, eh, sure it woulda been me, anyway. And I only had one gambit of a defense to fall back on.

★ The Rasei Vs no Lynch
★ The Nautilus Vs Tiki the Troll
★ The Five Vs Tiki the Troll
★ The Tiki the Troll Vs Five
★ The Cure Vs Tiki the Troll
★ The mr. Gerbear Vs Tiki the Troll
★ The Angelstar Vs Tiki the Troll
★ The She-ra Vs Tiki the Troll
★ The Katagi Vs Tiki the Troll
★ The Aeiou Vs Tiki the Troll
★ The Luxaria Vs Tiki the Troll


★ Tiki the Troll lX
★ Five l
★ No lynch l

let me know if I missed anyone!

Ah, yeah, that's a good point. I was just trying to look at it from the perspective of, "What could cause a kill on Sammiya, while still being in line with Kiyoko's role." But I think your interpretation makes more sense, since if you think you're grabbing a NK, or trying to do this at least, it makes no sense not to send it back to the sender (unless this... doesn't work? Like, if someone had their stun redirected onto them, would it still go off? Same with the NK).

Oh, what I meant by "best known target" is that... if Sammiya were lying, she's dead mafia. If she were telling the truth, it was arguably the best target to receive a kill since it would at least interact with her role to its full extent, on top of vetting Sammiya's honesty, so to speak. That'd just be my interpretation. There might have been (and probably were) better targets.

So... you didn't stun Plot.

..............



I'm not sure what shape this hole you're digging is. Is it Tiki-shaped? LIKE... I WANT TO HAVE FAITH IN YOU BEING TOWN! I WANT TO BELIEVE! BUT,

dude, the fact that you claimed the same target as five probably pushed some folks over the edge, i think

I then sought clarifiaction if she meant I could only use it on odd nights, or just couldn't use it back to back.

For future reference for new players: for the most part, if it says every other night and doesn't specify odd/even nights (like the twins in my game), it's just non-consecutive uses.

(unless this... doesn't work? Like, if someone had their stun redirected onto them, would it still go off? Same with the NK).

Kiyoko confirmed she could loop the NK, but I don't think she mentioned specifics. I do think though Kiyoko wouldn't deliberately kill Sammiya with her ability and redirecting kills because that almost seems wasteful and there was deliberation on whether or not Sammiya was being truthful, so.

Tiki wrote:There is absolutely nothing stopping this train at this point (not even the other claimed stunner helping to kill a Town, intentionally or otherwise XD), and the more info we have the better.

You always use reasoning like this in games and it never sits well with me. Townies can make mistakes. Townies can hit the wrong targets. Someone can kill someone they think is mafia and it turns out that person is town. It doesn't mean the person acting is mafia just because they might have made a mistake.

WHY the fuck would you try to counterclaim someone else's role when you didn't actually perform the action. even IF you were retroactively granted a stun, it doesn't mean you should claim someone else's role because they will lynch you into the ground because you're LYING. There's no way you're town after this. if you're town and willingly doing something like this it is Absolutely Not Okay.

nautilus wrote:

I then sought clarifiaction if she meant I could only use it on odd nights, or just couldn't use it back to back.

For future reference for new players: for the most part, if it says every other night and doesn't specify odd/even nights (like the twins in my game), it's just non-consecutive uses.

Well, that was the thing. She said every other night, but also specified N1, N3, etc. So there was confusion.

The specifications were examples, Tiki.

If you straight up lie to us to THIS EXTENT it's going to make us frustrated. Only mafia has a reason to lie that much. There's like... a 0% chance you're town at this point. There's no reason for a townie to CLAIM AN ACTION THEY DIDN'T EVEN DO, not be transparent about their bulletproof, stun someone who was vanilla for the night, and then try to say the claimed town stunner is a liar. There's just. Sorry. There's no way you're not mafia, and the attempted guilting tactics you're using to try and make us feel bad about suspecting and lynching you at this point are starting to make me annoyed. You got yourself into this mess. You only have yourself to blame. Stop trying to make us feel bad because it'll work on people who are Not Me. We're just playing the game here.

Don't lie to everyone to such an obvious, outable degree, and we won't feel the need to lynch you for being scummy. That's... just how it works. That's why this keeps happening. You never learn from it every time it happens. For your sake, I really hope you are mafia in this game, because then your behavior is understandable and excusable. Please don't be town.