Paw Enforcement [BEARS WIN]

@Lux It's incredibly easy to see how my statement re: you being helpful makes it easy to pass as town makes sense. You're known as being someone who posts lots of spec, who's generally really helpful; it's incredibly easy for mafia to hide behind that and if you can't see that, idk what else to say.

You know how you can make this easier for me? Maybe stop trying to say I've given up, that quitting and getting replaced is better, for one. I am a BIT unmotivated. I have other stuff going on in my life and you keep implying that if I'm not 100 percent available to this game, that I should just fucking leave. And, right here, I've given everybody the option of lynching me and leaving me vulnerable for death so that y'all finally get that information you want out of my death. This is far from giving up. I've learned that personal sacrifice to help town is a better way to play than self-preservation. So excuse me for having other things on my mind besides this game. I feel incredibly patronized right now. Downright insulted, even.

And, honestly, throughout this game, it hasn't only been me who's been on the end of your attacks. Recently, you've also been incredibly defensive whenever someone so much as mentions their suspicions on you. Your method of defense has been to attack other players. Granted, this game has very little concrete information to talk about but idk, that doesn't seem like you at all.

And that's why I'm going to shoot you if I'll be lynched.

I think at least one of the mafia is very active. Kiyoko pm'd me earlier in the game to check in on whether I was around, and I've got a hunch that the mafia didn't need checking on. Also, the intermission kill is kinda damning. Who was around during that rollover? I know I was there.

I'm on mobile so I can't properly quote but:

"As for you, Vowels, I still don't have strong indications, but you're talking so I don't want to lose you right now no matter your alignment."

And yet, the moment I say, oh it's ok if y'all get rid of me because I know I haven't sufficiently contributed, it's A Bad Thing and I should be replaced instead???

Okay, read through the walls of text.

Here are things that ping me.

Mafia have been consistently shooting the person without the killproof so far. However, this time Lux claimed the shot on Tiki, meaning one of the shots on Katze was the NK. Why would they suddenly change their strategy?
A possible reason would be, one of their own was the person stripped of their killproof. However, Tiki already died and flipped town.
Another possible reason would be, they led us to believe this is a pattern for them, then decided to NK someone else. Tiki pretty much announced his target from what I gathered, so I'd assume they noticed that and hit katze. If this is the case, we need to look into who was around at that time to notice this and send in the NK on katze.

During the exchange between Lux, Tiki and katze, the only people that have posted (and are not dead) are: Lux, Blaire, Gerry, and also Ninfia and Aeiou shortly before rollover, though they did not seem to have much time to read through. At least one of these people is mafia and sent the NK on katze. I'm primarily looking at Lux, Blaire and Gerry here tbh, since they were around during the actual exchange and gun-target claim which was later buried under a few pages and could be easily forgotten. Though Gerry less than other two because he offered himself to be shot and frankly in that situation that was a very not-mafia thing to say.

//kinda ranty, feel free to skip

I'm also annoyed that whenever I come to try to, you know, post and spec and stuff, I have to read through giant textwalls that are about 20% useful and I'm being generous here, but I can't really say if that's mafia intentionally bogging down the spec with them since there are so many of us who are busy this time and this efficiently shuts us up, or just me being annoyed as fuck that I have to go through that and then say "WELL THAT WAS FUCKING USELESS" and then run out of time to actually contribute.

//endrant

Actually, I agree with Ninfia that I don't trust Lux with a gun right now. She's been basically dominating the thread, but all we've gotten is more dead townies, one at her own hands, and the other one from last night someone who thought Lux was mafia.
This makes me uncomfortable.
I'm also iffy about her bringing up alca's reads from D1 because... exactly how are those relevant still? She had two phases for those reads, out of which one was hardly a phase at all since it was N0. So basically one phase. And it's now four phases since then. The only way I see them being relevant is because they conveniently clear Lux as the one alca trusted the most.
Additionally, she was okay to shoot Tiki partially because he was sick and that impaired his ability to be active, but at the same time she says that, I quote "Rasei is out of the picture for me until she can fix her keyboard". So some people can be killed for low activity while others not, without providing a solid reason? There are still two mafia, Rasei is just as likely to be mafia as Tiki could have been, even if she doesn't have a working keyboard. Her partner-in-crime could very well be sending in NKs in the meantime.

Lux said earlier that it pings her when my thinking isn't in line with hers. However, the inverse is also true, friend.

I'm going to reiterate that I'm not comfortable giving Lux a gun, but I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with her no-voting, either. Or anyone no-voting, for that matter.
Even if we assume that Lux is mafia, and we actually get her to no-vote, there's still another mafia to whom the gun could fall to at with the ratio going lower, I don't think I'm comfortable with that idea.

I would not be opposed to giving Gerry a gun at this point, however. That seems a reasonable choice and an offer, and he seems more caught up now as well as reading pro-town to me from his recent posts.

vote: Mr Gerbear

also, if notifs are accurate, I got ninja'd by 10 people while writing this. let me post, god damn ٩(╬ʘ益ʘ╬)۶

Mr. Gerbear wrote:@Lux It's incredibly easy to see how my statement re: you being helpful makes it easy to pass as town makes sense. You're known as being someone who posts lots of spec, who's generally really helpful; it's incredibly easy for mafia to hide behind that and if you can't see that, idk what else to say.

You're missing the main point, though. I acknowledge being a coordinating and prominent voice means I can easily blend in if I am mafia--as you imply, that's obvious. My point was that this is the main comment you've levied against me. You haven't actually said, "I think Lux is mafia because she did X and Y, and I feel weird about Z." It's just, "Lux is very pro-town so she could slip in." What do I do with that? It gives me nothing to respond to and no way to contend or help with your reads. You're basically just saying I'm mafia because I'm playing the game. How is that helpful? That's the same thing I pointed out to katze when she said I might be mafia because I was thinking of what mafia might do. So I've been accused of being mafia for 1) Being helpful and pro-town, and 2) Thinking of what mafia might do. That's ridiculous.

Mr. Gerbear wrote:You know how you can make this easier for me? Maybe stop trying to say I've given up, that quitting and getting replaced is better, for one.

You literally implied you had no desire to play. How else are we supposed to take that? I prompted the replacement aspect because if you want to help but didn't feel motivated to play, and you're town, then it hurts us a lot. I even said I like playing with you and didn't want that to happen, but I didn't want you to feel like you were stuck playing if you didn't want to. That's all it was. I understand the self-sacrifice aspect, but you mainly brought it up in response to people saying, "What do we do about Gerry? We don't know anything." And it's disheartening to just have you say, "Well just shoot/lynch/kill me to learn more." We don't want to have to do that if you're town. We want to hear your voice. We want to hear your thoughts. We want you here with us.

Mr. Gerbear wrote:And, honestly, throughout this game, it hasn't only been me who's been on the end of your attacks. Recently, you've also been incredibly defensive whenever someone so much as mentions their suspicions on you. Your method of defense has been to attack other players. Granted, this game has very little concrete information to talk about but idk, that doesn't seem like you at all.

What exactly are my attacks? Please explain to me how trying to defend myself is attacking. The main example is katze. I never once called katze mafia--I didn't even want to shoot her, and I wanted Tiki to explain why he even wanted to. I had trusted katze and I kept trying to explain that to her. I was frustrated that she wasn't understanding what I was saying, because I felt if she went down the road she wanted to go down, it'd end with one or both of us killed and we were the prominent voices in a world sans alcasync. I learned I was not communicating with her in a way that's effective for her. In the end, we had a truce, and she even said she thought I was probably town. Wouldn't you say responding to her was effective if in the end it made two prominent town voices decide to stop their back-and-forth? Is it attacking someone to break down their statements? That's what you're trying to do right now about my suggestions of you getting replaced, and I don't think you're attacking me at all.

The only other thing I've commented on recently is Ninfia's suggestion that I No Vote. Which I get, I'm in a weird spot because of rollover. All the same, the comment to that end ran completely contrary to our whole plan for D3 as a collective. Am I not allowed to find that to be weird? And now you're sending things my direction, but you're giving me very little to work with. Saying I'm overly defensive is fine--I get that. That is a fair point. I think the context surrounding the defense is dramatically different than implied, but I am biased. All I can do is try to express my point of view and do what I can to help--but then you say me helping makes me seem liable to be mafia, and I'm left wondering how do I help your reads in this case?

Mr. Gerbear wrote:I think at least one of the mafia is very active. Kiyoko pm'd me earlier in the game to check in on whether I was around, and I've got a hunch that the mafia didn't need checking on. Also, the intermission kill is kinda damning. Who was around during that rollover? I know I was there.

That's fair and not unreasonable to figure there's at least one mafia likely to be present at rollover given the intermission. That said, most people do show up at rollover even if they don't post--it could have even been Dylan, since he was likely around, even if he was dead. I can't fact-check that Kiyoko checked in on you, just as you can't fact-check that I talk to Kiyoko 15+ hours a day and would be able to make sure an action went through. I don't even like mentioning things like that because it should have no bearing on the game, but all the same.

Mr. Gerbear wrote:I'm on mobile so I can't properly quote but:

"As for you, Vowels, I still don't have strong indications, but you're talking so I don't want to lose you right now no matter your alignment."

And yet, the moment I say, oh it's ok if y'all get rid of me because I know I haven't sufficiently contributed, it's A Bad Thing and I should be replaced instead???

How are these the same?

Where did Vowels express she didn't want to play? Vowels has been consistently trying to weigh in across the phases. You're only just now trying to buy your way in because I suggested you be replaced because by your own admission you weren't motivated to play. How is expressing concern for what is best for you, as a person and a player, equivalent to feeling that Vowels has contributed enough to the point where I'm not looking to risk losing her just yet?







dylan pls

I said I was a BIT unmotivated. Words mean nothing anymore, I guess. I wouldn't sign up to play if I didn't want to play.

Vowels = vocal and so shouldn't be lost, I agree
Me = not as vocal and so, as I said, wouldn't be that big of a loss. But then it's not ok for me to be ok with being lynched/killed?

I'm checking out until later in the afternoon before I get even bitchier. Peace.

ezzelin wrote:During the exchange between Lux, Tiki and katze, the only people that have posted (and are not dead) are: Lux, Blaire, Gerry, and also Ninfia and Aeiou shortly before rollover, though they did not seem to have much time to read through. At least one of these people is mafia and sent the NK on katze.

This is... incredibly flawed reasoning, and I'm sure you know this, right? Haven't you ever heard of the concept of lurking? Like for sure, by sheer statistics at least one of those people is probably mafia. But... really? This is your angle?

ezzelin wrote:I'm also annoyed that whenever I come to try to, you know, post and spec and stuff, I have to read through giant textwalls that are about 20% useful and I'm being generous here, but I can't really say if that's mafia intentionally bogging down the spec

Going for subtlety, I see.

ezzelin wrote:Actually, I agree with Ninfia that I don't trust Lux with a gun right now. She's been basically dominating the thread, but all we've gotten is more dead townies, one at her own hands, and the other one from last night someone who thought Lux was mafia.

Sorry I didn't kill a mafia the only night I had a gun. Sorry for trying to keep discussion going somewhere. This is why I learned to stop posting over the summer because the investment for no pay-off is exhausting. I dislike being such a large voice (I said this earlier, even), but even more I dislike knowing that if I literally just posted 2-3 times a phase that town would roll over and die and we'd lose.

ezzelin wrote:I'm also iffy about her bringing up alca's reads from D1 because... exactly how are those relevant still? She had two phases for those reads, out of which one was hardly a phase at all since it was N0. So basically one phase. And it's now four phases since then. The only way I see them being relevant is because they conveniently clear Lux as the one alca trusted the most.

It's almost like I explained why I brought them up, but I guess I'm too spammy to follow. It's almost as if we had so little reads from everyone in the thread that I had to turn to literally dead players to get concrete thoughts, because for the most part the thread is allergic to discussion.

ezzelin wrote:Additionally, she was okay to shoot Tiki partially because he was sick and that impaired his ability to be active, but at the same time she says that, I quote "Rasei is out of the picture for me until she can fix her keyboard". So some people can be killed for low activity while others not, without providing a solid reason?  

Again, you're not reading, are you? I explained my thought process for Tiki in its entirety. The entire bulk of that logic was centered around other variables, but you hone in on the one-line mention I threw in as an aside. I wasn't able to kill Rasei that night. I also was also holding on to lingering D1 impressions of her being town since that's the last time we really heard from her--and others said she felt town, too. Now it's D3, we lost two town, and she's still not around and I'm trying to figure out the best way to approach what to do with her. It's as if you missed the part where I was trying to figure out how we answer that question, and also expressing frustration that we don't know if she's just an inactive town. For Tiki, I posted concrete statements as to why I felt uncomfortable with him, and thus why I shot him. So you're advocating I should have shot Rasei instead? I know you were busy and sick and not around, but when I'm literally asking for feedback from the thread and not getting it for the most part, what can I do? Like, fuck me, right?

ezzelin wrote:Lux said earlier that it pings her when my thinking isn't in line with hers.

I've been thinking the same thing for you.

Get some rest and feel better.

Mr. Gerbear wrote:I said I was a BIT unmotivated. Words mean nothing anymore, I guess. I wouldn't sign up to play if I didn't want to play.

Vowels = vocal and so shouldn't be lost, I agree
Me = not as vocal and so, as I said, wouldn't be that big of a loss. But then it's not ok for me to be ok with being lynched/killed?

I'm sorry if I offended you. I did not mean to and I feel like if you sat back and reflected on what I was saying you'd realize this, but if you don't that's my fault and I get it. I'm an asshole. I know this. I thought I'd try and look out for you and simultaneously help the thread in the event you were not in the right playing conditions. I am glad to see you're posting and trying to contribute. That's much better than just rolling over. Thank you for that, even if you both suspect and dislike me now for it. I only wanted more to work with than vague statements.

feel better ezz! I know how hard it is to mafia and be sick :c

Luxaria wrote: I don't have any major thoughts on Ninfia, but I also did find her assessments of the situation between me and katze to be inaccurate, but I realize she was also still reading as she said it. I want her to clarify what she meant in the last post she made re: me No Voting, because that felt really weird considering thread consensus.

I think the biggest thing that's bothering me at the moment is that you're in a position where you look scummy. The way the last rollover worked out was really, really scummy. It was the perfect case scenario for the mafia and I'm a little surprised more people haven't pressed you on it. literally the person who was pressing you the hardest dies spectacularly after you (and myself by coming back into the thread to be a less enticing target for tiki, I guess) have a massive confrontation and the other town player died as well.

You killed a town player and I don't think your reasoning is justified aside from the "he was sick" part of it. from my understanding, the gun was given to tiki to see what he did with it and you didn't let him live long enough to examine what would happen after his action.

I've been kind of erring on the side of you being maf for a couple phases now. Initially, I thought that while you were helpful you seemed less fiery? about your plans than you have in the past. this was a pretty general gut read so I didn't think much on it. however, I also know that you hate playing the mafia side of this game. if you are mafia, that makes a lot of sense. Perhaps that's meta gaming too hard off an initial gut read, but well, there it is.

also, of note, before dylan died he stated he'd rather you have the gun than alca. This is a reasonable thing to say as a town or maf player because you're excellent at keeping the thread active. you're an excellent player. However, its also a neutral enough statement that you could brush off. Dylan was a lot more aggressive about saying how he thought I was town which could perhaps be a cover for his more moderate support of you.

In general, your exchange with katze also left a sour taste for me, as I expressed before. I think your aggressiveness was almost... uncharacteristic of yourself in the current stage of the game, but I have seen you become frustrated like that before, so that's less a factor, I guess. as I was reading your exchanges, I couldn't help feeling that if katze flipped town, you would flip maf. at this point, until you flip, I don't believe I can trust you.

I don't want you to have any chance at a gun. Sure, there is a chance you're town, but I don't feel comfortable with you having a gun with all this swirling in my head.

all this being said, I am... okay I think with giving gerry a gun based on what he's said so far. I think despite the fact he's maybe a little checked out, he's behaving in a way that makes sense from a town perspective. I feel uncomfortable stripping is killproof, but I also think that of the town players available, it makes sense, and he's also willing to do it. I think gerry has poked his head in and what he's said has been reasonable to me.

as I said earlier, I am still in two camps when it comes to no lynching vs lynching, but at this point, we can't sit around and wait for the mafia to act. we have to put pressure on them.

my promised lists:

people I would be okay with getting a gun
Ninfia, Gerry, Aeiou

people I don't want to lose a killproof
Ninfia, Aeiou

People I'm ??? on
Rasei, Blaire, Ezz(?)

People I do not want to have a gun at this point in time
Rasei, Luxaria


so, all this in mind, Vote: Mr. Gerbear

a bunch of stuff was posted while I was writing so I'll post this and read that. views may change depending on what was posted.

so we all should just listen to Lux and never ever doubt her because she is Always Town and it's against the law to doubt someone who is Always Town, got it.

this game is going nowhere I'm going to bed

I'm too tired to address you, too.

I'm tired of being piled on for defending myself and trying to help town. This is how the game works, I know. This happens to everyone. It's just shitty when the reasons against me are nothing I can work with. I get the whole Tiki thing, but it's as if me explaining it and reasoning it out means nothing. It's as if the fact that the main comments I saw re: shots were Tiki just deciding he was going to shoot katze (on top of other concerns that I highlighted, but apparently they can be hand-waved as "nah they don't count"), who I didn't think should be shot, and then Gerry saying "just shoot me", and Ninfia saying "Maybe Gerry, maybe don't shoot, idk game is weird", and katze saying 2-3 minutes before rollover, "maybe don't shoot, but idk either". The shitty part was I couldn't discuss shooting Tiki because it'd alert mafia and ruin the intent of it, but I had so few other voices weighing in. At least when I die you'll see I was honest, but it's not going to matter, will it?

Vote: Mr. Gerbear

Shoot me. Mafia wins. I simply don't care anymore if everyone is going to suspect me for reasons completely out of my control, when I've contributed as much as I physically can into this game, on top of thoughts and reads and pushing discussion, and everything else. I've been accused of being mafia for playing the game in every sense of the word solely because I am in the game trying. So I don't care. This is anti-town: I am giving up.

I will not post again unless the situation changes, but you guys don't want me to post, even. What's the point? Why do I bother when every instance of defense just further solidifies these reads on me? What am I supposed to reasonably do? I'm being told:

1. Don't post
2. Don't think
3. Don't defend
4. Don't vote
5. Don't speculate

This is in part exaggeration, but not by much, and it summarizes my frustration. Especially when I am trying to encourage those five points from everyone else. So, kill me.

I get the last laugh when you all realize you just succeeded in killing off a town that did her best to push the thread forward. But I should be glad, at least, that apparently me being such a scummy player has driven you all into action.

Good luck finding the mafia. You're going to need it.

I will address this because I'm still not asleep and I have to wait for laundry anyway because my life sucks.

Luxaria wrote:

ezzelin wrote:During the exchange between Lux, Tiki and katze, the only people that have posted (and are not dead) are: Lux, Blaire, Gerry, and also Ninfia and Aeiou shortly before rollover, though they did not seem to have much time to read through. At least one of these people is mafia and sent the NK on katze.

This is... incredibly flawed reasoning, and I'm sure you know this, right? Haven't you ever heard of the concept of lurking? Like for sure, by sheer statistics at least one of those people is probably mafia. But... really? This is your angle?

Yes, this is my angle and I could do without the patronising. Virtually everyone except for you has been busy this game, and I honestly don't see them having time to "lurk".

Luxaria wrote:

ezzelin wrote:I'm also annoyed that whenever I come to try to, you know, post and spec and stuff, I have to read through giant textwalls that are about 20% useful and I'm being generous here, but I can't really say if that's mafia intentionally bogging down the spec

Going for subtlety, I see.

Actually you're not the only one, but if you wish to take the full blame for that, fine. I also did say that was more ranty and that you're free to skip it, but as always you only quote whatever section is convenient for you.

Luxaria wrote:

ezzelin wrote:Actually, I agree with Ninfia that I don't trust Lux with a gun right now. She's been basically dominating the thread, but all we've gotten is more dead townies, one at her own hands, and the other one from last night someone who thought Lux was mafia.

Sorry I didn't kill a mafia the only night I had a gun. Sorry for trying to keep discussion going somewhere. This is why I learned to stop posting over the summer because the investment for no pay-off is exhausting. I dislike being such a large voice (I said this earlier, even), but even more I dislike knowing that if I literally just posted 2-3 times a phase that town would roll over and die and we'd lose.

I agree that discussion benefits the town. However, there's a difference between healthy discussion and writing series of extremely long posts that could be trimmed down and not lose anything.

And re: you not killing a mafia the only night you had a gun - that's literally just one of the things, and not even my main problem here.
You were adamantly explaining how spreading the guns between two people is better than giving two to the same person and have them double-up because it spreads out our choices, takes off a few killproofs but keeps a higher ratio. However, you yourself chose to not do that at all, instead killing a townie, and ending the phase with no killproofs stripped and 2 townies dead, which is the same as the worst-case scenario of the double-up plan that you were so vehemently against.

???

Luxaria wrote:

ezzelin wrote:I'm also iffy about her bringing up alca's reads from D1 because... exactly how are those relevant still? She had two phases for those reads, out of which one was hardly a phase at all since it was N0. So basically one phase. And it's now four phases since then. The only way I see them being relevant is because they conveniently clear Lux as the one alca trusted the most.

It's almost like I explained why I brought them up, but I guess I'm too spammy to follow. It's almost as if we had so little reads from everyone in the thread that I had to turn to literally dead players to get concrete thoughts, because for the most part the thread is allergic to discussion.

Yes, you said "because I'm always upset when people don't look at my reads after I die". Guess what, we did look at her reads after she died. However, it's been a while since she died, and any reads she formed then were based on what, a phase of the game. My point still stands.

Luxaria wrote:

ezzelin wrote:Additionally, she was okay to shoot Tiki partially because he was sick and that impaired his ability to be active, but at the same time she says that, I quote "Rasei is out of the picture for me until she can fix her keyboard". So some people can be killed for low activity while others not, without providing a solid reason?  

Again, you're not reading, are you? I explained my thought process for Tiki in its entirety. The entire bulk of that logic was centered around other variables, but you hone in on the one-line mention I threw in as an aside. I wasn't able to kill Rasei that night. I also was also holding on to lingering D1 impressions of her being town since that's the last time we really heard from her--and others said she felt town, too. Now it's D3, we lost two town, and she's still not around and I'm trying to figure out the best way to approach what to do with her. It's as if you missed the part where I was trying to figure out how we answer that question, and also expressing frustration that we don't know if she's just an inactive town. For Tiki, I posted concrete statements as to why I felt uncomfortable with him, and thus why I shot him. So you're advocating I should have shot Rasei instead? I know you were busy and sick and not around, but when I'm literally asking for feedback from the thread and not getting it for the most part, what can I do? Like, fuck me, right?

I explicitly said "partially". I never once said you shot tiki exclusively for that reason. And you said it yourself.

Luxaria wrote:Last but not least: He had been sick and struggling to keep up by his own admission. It was partly pity.

Again, I am reading, and you're twisting my words. All I said is that I find it strange that you were okay shooting tiki who was partially inactive, and even partially for that reason, while you're not okay touching someone else for the same reason. There is no other particular reason you have expressed to not lynch/shoot Rasei, so how are these cases different? I'll put it plainly, because you're either not understanding or not wanting to understand.

For Tiki, you had your reasons to shoot him. And being inactive added another reason to shoot him, according to your own words.
However for Rasei, being inactive is reason for you to not shoot or lynch her, without any other reason provided.
That inconsistency right there is my problem.

Luxaria wrote:

ezzelin wrote:Lux said earlier that it pings her when my thinking isn't in line with hers.

I've been thinking the same thing for you.

This is really interesting, because you kept saying how our thinking is mostly in-line except for one thing which I did explain and was understandable, and then progressively went more "iffy" about my thinking without me ever posting in the meantime.

Posts in question: 1 2 3
You went from mainly agreeing with me and understanding my thinking where it differed from yours, to being intrigued and wanting my killproof off, to being "iffy" about a part of my thinking within three posts while I didn't post or update said "thinking" even once.

Like, what exactly are you trying to do here?

And lastly, I'd like to emphasize that people who suspect you aren't trying to personally attack you, and it'd be nice if you didn't seem to take it as such.

Hey guys, reminder to keep it nice. I know it's never fun to be on the defense, but we are still Friends here. Let's not get too aggressive with each other.

Regardless I am on mobile again so this post won't be too long. At this point lux is kind of backed into a corner and we have to put our faith in Gerry to use his gun appropriately. If she's town it's likely she will also be nk'd but at least we know and we can examine what lead to the situation.

my feelings havent changed on my read at this point so at this point we will see what happens.