Gakuen Mafia EP04-EP08 [ENG SUB]

Putting on the admin hat for a moment here. This isn't srsbsns admin stuff, just letting you guys know that for the moment I'm speaking as Kiyoko-with-the-purple-name and not Kiyoko-the-player.

This is a long post. I know. Read it. This isn't a giant speculation post, this is about the meta of the game and forum

Whether or not you agree with every word in Raie's post, the intent of her post is incredibly valid. Mafia is a team game. It is also a game where you don't necessarily know who is on your team. I've mentioned this before in previous games, but someone breaking down your arguments is them playing the game to the best of their ability, and is not a personal attack. (This does not give anyone an excuse to make personal attacks under the guise of breaking down someone's argument.)

That's all I wanted to say on that.

To Alice and Lux specifically: If you are not enjoying the game, please don't force yourselves. If you truly believe that you are unable to participate to the bare minimum level expected of a mafia player, please, please tell alca as soon as possible so that she can make the call on how to proceed.

I just really want everyone to keep in mind that Jaiser has already withdrawn, and we were unable to find replacements for Jaiser. If we absolutely need to, alca can come up with reasonable compensation for whichever team Lux and Alice are on, but this is basically the least ideal outcome.

If you really do want to play the game but are having trouble figuring out how to be effective, honestly, if you are town, town wants you to prove that you are town. Alice and Lux keep reading, but rest of town, start paying attention here.

If you are town and someone is struggling to defend themselves, don't just say "We already asked you questions." Yes, you're not responsible for going back through thread and digging all those up, but you will help your team by making it easier for other players to know what you want to hear from them.

So that I'm practicing what I preach, I would like to hear the following answers. Other players can feel free to add questions of their own.

@Alice

• Why didn't you protect Kotakia last night? Did you believe Kotakia was mafia?
  
• Who do you believe is town?
  
• If not you, who do you think we should vote for this phase? You can list a few names, you don't have to lead a lynch.
  

@Luxaria

• Why did you create the election between nautilus and ezreal and then immediately switch your vote off nautilus and onto ezreal?
  
• Is there a reason you didn't air your suspicions first and let the both of them claim? You mentioned in your large post that it was on them to prove their towniness, but then what? With election day active, even if they both managed to prove their towniness, we'd still be forced to kill a town.
  
• There were a bunch of quieter players on everyone's "unknown" list. I don't mean to say "let's kill off all of the quieter players," but I'm wondering why you chose to target two incredibly strong speculators, knowing that no matter what we would be losing one.
  
• Who do you believe is town?
  
• If not you, who do you think we should vote for this phase? You can list a few names, you don't have to lead a lynch.
  

For the record I wasn't trying to 'throw a fit' and I find that description to be a bit extreme.

The only reason why I offered town to off me was because I'm going to die anyway based on the high amount of suspicion on me and due to personal reasons I didn't feel like fighting it so I'm embracing my inevitable death. Maybe my post came across the wrong way and I apologize for that. I really am. I didn't want to start any drama and I wish I didn't say anything.

And uhh I'm telling you to kill me before Lux because that's my relationship effect and if something happens and Lux gets lynched before me, that one lynchproof will look very scummy and town might waste another lynch or kill on Lux, and they shouldn't because I highly suspect that she's town. I was just informing you of my relationship effect so it wouldn't surprise you and mislead you into thinking Lux is a lynchproof mafia.

However, IF you find Lux to be too scummy to ignore I am once again telling you to kill me first because you'll be saving your time if you do so. This is not me quitting the game I'm just saying this for town's benefit.

Yes I am relatively new to mafia and not at all experienced.

And um, I was technically inactive for like one phase not three.

@Kiyoko Well the only reason why I didn't want to just leave like Jaiser did was because I find this highly unfair for both sides. Lux refuses to post anymore and I believed that if I left through intermission she would follow suit so the game would lose 3 players just like that. I found that a bit unfair to the game in general since if anyone could just leave when they felt frustrated then there would be no point in speculation since in Intermission, the alignment of the player would be revealed with no tricks involved (I think?). I do think that Lux should quit, but I stayed because I could still follow the thread and answer with whatever info I had, even though my tone has been rather grumpy.

So:

-I don't think Kotakia's mafia. She flipped town and I don't doubt that. However, there are at least 2 protective roles in this game because I remember there being a protect on Kiyoko N0 and a town jailer so I didn't feel the need to. I was protecting myself because I was under high suspicion and a town vig could easily off me, which naut tried to do before.

-I can't really provide good reads at the moment, but I'm 100% certain Lux is town. Rasei, T3t, Kiyoko are all in my Probably list. I'm aware that most of these people have vouched for other players through role reasons but I haven't been keeping too up to date with those. And the people Kotakia has cleared: Cure, Rodea, Mr Alice. I'm excluding adawg and Kotakia because they're in detention.

-Um, I think that we should at least include a vote for Tiki and get him there as second place instead of Lux. I..can't provide a list because I'm not certain of anything right now.

Vote : Tiki the Troll

I'll spec post and answer questions when I can, but quickly, before work, I felt I had to get this out (and that it's currently way more important) :

To Alice and Lux, you two both know my frustrations and woes with pretty much 100% of the games I play. Still, you ladies ave always been cool to me and helped keep my head high, and have really helped in making this a game worth playing. So really, I do hope you guys come back to being active, and if you need to talk about anything, know that I'm willing to repay the kindness you have shown ten-fold. (Same NSFW warning as my last link had.)

Maybe I can't give the best strategic advice...but if anyone knows how to stay in the game despite being chagrined and bewildered, it's me. XD

That's fine, thanks for sharing your thoughts! For what it's worth, I really do appreciate you coming back in to post. I can't really blame anyone for not being able to keep up because this is a huge fucking game and I haven't even been updating my own infopost.

Can you explain why you think Lux is 100% town? Is it for behind-the-scenes role-related reasons, or is it because of her behavior?

Okay admin hat time again.

If Lux really does refuse to play anymore that is essentially gamethrowing and against the rules. Lux, if you no longer intend to play, please message alca if you haven't already with a formal withdrawl, and try to help her come up with a reasonable compensation for your team based on your role.

Sammie and I only briefly discussed the penalty for breaking any of the bigger rules (gamethrowing, communicating outside of thread beyond the acceptable gray area, etc.) because we were hoping people wouldn't do it, but likely the penalty involves not being allowed to play for the next round or something like that, so. Please do keep this in mind. I'm not trying to scare anyone, but there are rules and we are going to be enforcing them.

I will provide a reply to you, Kiyoko.

I am not enjoying the game. I will also avoid signing up for future games, as it is unfair to the other players that in the past two games I have taken them incredibly seriously and competitively, burned out, and then taken a break from the thread. I just cannot take the game less seriously, and as such I do not feel my playstyle is compatible with other players, nor is it healthy; I spent most of yesterday sick and pained after going 30 hours without food or sleep while I pursued my theories. This is no one's fault but my own. And it makes me very sad because I love mafia and I love you guys, but I just do not feel like I am welcomed with how I play.

I do not wish to withdraw because that would be unfair to town to further weaken their numbers, and I truly, honestly do have a death role that stands to benefit town in the event that I am killed or lynched. Thus, I figured withdrawing would not be wise, and I did not wish to anger or upset sensei after all she's had to deal with this game.

Anyway, the problem is that no one is going to believe anything I say anymore. I stopped posting because I put everything I had into that gambit, completely believing in what I was posting. I laid myself bare, and the problem is that my role is exceptionally scummy sounding from a town perspective--and I acknowledge that, and I foresaw this eventuality as early as N0. I even asked alca how on earth I could explain myself in a way that would sound pro-town with the alloted roles, since it seems so futile. I do love the flavor of them, however, as they fit the super serious, coordinating bookworm archetype. Sadly, much like me as a player, my roles do not jive with the game, the players, and the community. Once it failed, I had nothing left to say or do. Why would anyone listen to me?

To answer your questions:

1) I put my election vote on nautilus because, given nautilus as a player, it seemed incredibly unlikely that I could ask a third-party to place a probing vote onto her, whereas ezreal was a better candidate. This is reinforced by the fact that Kotakia even stated she viewed ezreal as scummy. I swapped onto ezreal later because while both of them had given me major scum reads, I had it in the back of my head that nautilus had a chance to be town being misled by the mafia. I am not super familiar with her playstyle, too, so maybe this is just how she types and I misread it, much like how Alice has suffered all game.

Additionally, I considered forcing the lynch between ezreal and Tiki, or ezreal and eleni, but I figured there would be no pressure on ezreal in these instances, and I also wanted nautilus to actually try and defend herself. I haven't read any pages since I last posted in the thread, so I do not know what was said or what happened.

2) I did not provide them a chance before the election because, as I suggested, view this situation from my perspective. I could not let go of the idea that there was a miller/tailor. If we went with the idea that they attacked Kiyoko right off the bat (and Kiyoko wasn't actually some mafia gambit like a town ezreal is suggesting, in which case I'm eating humble pie, but I've already had it forced down my throat at this point?), this made me wonder why certain other individuals had not been targetted.

T3tsuya sounded neutral, so he was less likely to be hit outright by kills. And then when it was revealed he was town, it was by a roleclaiming cop, and that meant he had not been milled, since the milling happened early.

There's no point going into Kotakia's situation right now, so that left myself, ezreal, and nautilus. I think someone (can't remember who) asked why I indicated these players. It has nothing to do with perceived skill (as I believe everyone here is competent and capable of great play and speculation), but more to do with active voices. It's fairly common for mafia to have one prominent voice in the thread, else they run the risk of town just coordinating and talking too much. This idea has been backed universally, and as I pointed out, ezreal and nautilus were primary backers of this claim.

But then when you cross-reference it, these two players viewed Kiyoko as town, they viewed each other as town, and T3tsuya was off the radar for everyone, and was even backed by Kotakia, who had a strong town claim. Further, at the time of writing, ezreal and nautilus were going in hard on Kotakia's claim in a very, very suspicious manner. Even Kotakia found them suspicious and remarked on it.

And so, again, consider my perspective. When I thoroughly feel like someone in that group of active voices is likely to be mafia, and a prominent faction is setting up for a lynch onto Alice, which reflects badly onto me... Can't you see how that would freak me out and make me worried? Especially with the idea of a miller in play? Especially with the possibility of it being on me? Especially with the possibility of ezreal and nautilus being mafia, since they had been very scummy from my perspective? Especially since I suddenly had several people (notably eleni) trying to cast suspicions on me?

I felt like if I was too reactive, it would allow time for the mafia to set up their case and press forward and set up a trap around myself and Alice by using the miller role--which you, yourself, proposed as a very possible counter-balance for Kotakia's role. I bit into the apple believing that if I did not act proactively from the higher ground with everything I had, with as much proof and speculation as I could muster, that I risked just having the tables flipped on me by mafia and falling straight into their trap.

But then everyone got mad at me for trying my hardest and turned on me, and I had nothing left that I could do.

3) I answered why I chose them in the second response, I believe. Notice that I voted for Sammiya the previous phase to hear from her, a silent player, but I could not swap my vote off of her without looking like I was supporting Alice, and I did not believe Alice was mafia based off of the arguments proposed by ezreal and nautilus. I repeatedly tried to make statements touching upon the subject, but at this time I was exceptionally fearful of supporting her given how the past few games have gone, and, thus, how any support in her favor could be misconstrued. But when these players kept charging on ahead on her lynch ("we really, really, really need to lynch her"), with their poor reasoning, with their alarming insistence, it set off all kinds of alarms. In my mega post, I explained in full why I found all of their attacks on her to be unsubstantiated, and, in some cases, hypocritical.

4) I believe Kotakia's claim, I believe the people she vetted (I can't remember their names beyond T3tsuya, Cure, Rodea, and Alice, and I don't know who she vetted last night phase because I stopped reading the thread). I still don't trust ezreal, but I honestly haven't read her rebuttal except to see her say that her revive failed or something. I don't trust eleni, especially when she didn't jail Kotakia under the excuse that "but her relationship effect", when those are independent of jailing, iirc? I mean confessions happen instantaneously (or, rather, now three times a day), and Kotakia's results occur once the relationship is formed, but not after rollover like a jailer's effect. In other words, tl;dr: see T3tsuya's post.

5) I don't know who should be lynched anymore, and nor will anyone take a word I say seriously. If I am lynched, I still have a death effect that can come into play, even if it hurt's town's ratio in the end. I still don't trust ezreal. I also don't trust eleni, and Tiki's claim is still strange to me. I'm willing to bet some other quiet players have slipped under the radar. I do not know how to process you, Kiyoko, because you sound like a neutral, or a town with a neutral role, but that could be a mafia fabricating a case as neutral and you actually, truly, did what ezreal said and engaged in a weird gambit. I am inclined to believe you are town, but who knows.

No one cares. No one will care about anything I have to say. I really, truly do want all of you to enjoy this game, and there has been lovely fanart and fun had by mostly all. I sincerely hope I have not ruined it for anyone. I also hope the game has not been taken irreversibly out of town's hands, and I hope in the post-game when you see my role ability and alignment in full and reflect upon both this post and my last mega post, you will see that I truly tried to be honest and thorough and did what I believed in town's best interests. If I was wrong, I am sorry. Maybe I'm just a really terrible and stupid player.

I'm just sorry for everything.

Edit: Sorry, I hope I don't sound like I'm looking for pity with some of my comments. I am just incredibly frustrated and distraught because after the reaction I received, I'm in this situation where I'm damned if I reply, and damned if I don't, and so I have no idea what I can say or do at this point to make anyone believe me, coupled with the fact that my role and relationship effect both sound so incredibly scummy.

@Kiyoko Well I just don't think she'd do that election if she was mafia. Nautilus flipped town and if she was mafia she'd know this and avoid putting her on the chopping block. Also, me and Lux have been hinting at each other through notes about our roles and she created this 'code' that I'd use to give further details about my role anonymously while I posted. This wasn't against the rules otherwise alca would have stepped in so we went through with it. (the code involved emotes btw)

She's also hinted about her role, and everything she's said (and done) about her role in thread has made sense and I didn't find anything contradicting.

And, well, she defended me pretty hard. If she was mafia trying to win over a power role I was the worst candidate since nearly everyone was suspecting me at that time. She put herself at an immense risk and there is no way a mafia, even a risk-taking mafia would do such a thing.

I..think that if she were mafia she was doing a terrible job of it, and that is NOT how Lux plays she always has some plan.

@Luxaria: I'm going to preface this by saying, I really truly appreciate you coming back to thread and putting effort into a post that answers all of those questions, and that you gave me real answers instead of being evasive. I really appreciate you sticking through this with us and not withdrawing.

For what it's worth, mafia is a game and if it's stressing you out more than you're enjoying it, my advice would be to take a break. If not for the rest of this game (for reasons you've stated), then at least for the next round or two in following games. This isn't directed to you specifically, I say this to every single player who runs into this burnout because it happens a lot to many people and it is common and okay and entirely understandable to need some time away from the forum.

I'm going to try to reply to some of your points from my own perspective, and hopefully this will help you understand where some of the other opinions in this thread are coming from, as well.

But then everyone got mad at me for trying my hardest and turned on me, and I had nothing left that I could do.

If you are town, I understand you acting in what you believed was a pro-town manner. If you are mafia, well, props for writing that gigantic post. However, think about it from our perspective. Nobody knew what you were going to do. If you are town, then 13(? I forget the ratio) other town were not given a single choice in the matter.

You say to consider your perspective, that you thought they were both mafia. Well, consider mine, too. I, personally, truly believed that ez and nautilus were both town and I still believe that they're both town, and now suddenly we're all being forced to off two of the strongest speculators in the thread and nobody gets a choice. If you're town, nautilus was town, and ez was town, then mafia probably had a field day with that day phase.

I'm not going to say whether or not I thought that day phase was overall a good or bad idea, but I do want to at least let you know why some people were understandably alarmed by that whole situation.

No one cares. No one will care about anything I have to say.

If I didn't care, I wouldn't be here at fucking 4:33 in the morning writing up this response to you showing that I have obviously read and processed your post. Clearly I care. I asked you questions in my last post, why would I write those if I didn't want to hear the answer?

So yes. I care.

Everyone who has been wondering where you've been these past few phases also cares.

Your entire post and all the new information in it is exactly what I think a lot of us wanted to hear. Sorry if some of the questions were things you'd already answered in the past. A lot of things have changed since then, and also as we all collectively are very aware, it's hard to keep track of information and sometimes people need answers repeated for them. So thank you for taking the time to answer.

I truly, honestly do have a death role that stands to benefit town in the event that I am killed or lynched.

This is an honest question, please answer it from the perspective of the best possible strategy from town's perspective if you are town. Feel free to say whatever if you are mafia.

If you are not having fun, and your death ability helps town, do you think it would be a valid, pro-town move for you and Alice to break up to negate Alice's relationship effect, and then for you to allow yourself to be lynched as a sacrifice (the same way Kotakia did in masquerade mafia)? This isn't me trying to be mean and coerce you into exiting the game, this is, "do you think lynching you in this phase might provide town a boost that would be more beneficial than you staying alive?"

@Alice: Thanks, that's the kind of answer I was looking for.

Hey Town, check back in, this is spec
If Luxaria answers that she's more useful alive than dead, I would be willing to consider Tiki and eleni as possible other lynch candidates. For what it's worth, I'm not currently inclined to believe eleni is mafia, but I'm willing to hear the arguments on either side.

I put an edit into my last post. I apologize if some of my frustrations colored my phrasing and wording.

I am aware that there are 13 other town and they would not be in on the plan. I thought about that a lot. The entire time I wondered if anyone would believe me, but I felt like I had built a strong case with a lot of logic behind it. I was challenging the two people most people viewed out of the realm of suspicion. I didn't know how to go about that and give warning without possibly allowing mafia to benefit and plan around my sudden line of inquiry. I say again, maybe it was just all a really dumb and stupid idea, but I really did believe in it completely. I still do think I made the best decision with what I had.

As far as your proposal, I don't know how good it is. I guess I'll just be frank at this point. I've been trying to use it as a bit of a bluff by being ambiguous. The effect itself is just that it makes all votes for the next day phase have to be submitted to the host anonymously, and in the lynch tally you won't see who voted for which player.

I'll let you decide how beneficial that is for town. I just don't even know how useful it is, which is why I've hesitated to say it because on top of election day... and only being able to romance one person... my role is just so narrow and scummy. But there it is. I'll let you guys decide if you actually want to make use of it, since at this point bluffing with ambiguity means nothing since mafia has no reason to kill me since I've done a great job of it on my own, apparently.


Edit: If you want the flavor... paraphrasing:

As the indifferent and super serious bookworm, I'm not too invested in this situation, but if everyone is going to make a big deal of this issue, then I want it to be done properly. Once during the game, during the day, I can make two players with one vote on them be the only lynch targets able to be voted on for the rest of the phase.

If I'm sent to detention, everything gets hectic in my absence, and next day all votes will be anonymous.

I also take relationships extremely seriously and I cannot break up at all, but the other person can. I cannot form a relationship with a new player under any condition. (I hinted at this early on by saying Alice was the only waifu in the world for me--I can find the post if you want).

So.... The role flavor fits me, I guess. It's ironic how terribly wrong it was in the end. It just sounds so scummy. ._.

This is my last post before bed.

I believe I, specifically, am in a position where I can give you advice because (assuming you are town) I am the only player on vdex and on CryWolf besides you who has had that ability as town. I had it as America in the first rp maf, I did the same thing you did and used my ability without informing anyone. I forced a lynch between Lucas (town) and Feli (maf) and somehow managed to get town to lynch the mafia. It... is a hugely scummy role and basically the only way you can clear yourself with it is to get a maf lynched, so... my condolences. The entire thread was pissed at me throughout the day phase and even after Feli flipped maf a few people still only begrudgingly accepted it.

Lucas can back me up here he was probably pissed at me too. Considering he was on the chopping block.

Sometimes things work out, and sometimes they don't. Sometimes you're town and someone hands you a gun and you shoot someone in the face because you're certain they're scummy, and they flip town. People make mistakes. This entire game is about trying to nudge the other team into making mistakes. Even if something doesn't go right, pick yourself up and try again. I've seen some games make a complete 180 when it seemed almost certain that someone was about to lose. Hell, look at the most TV tropes maf for an example.

So. Regardless of your alignment. Chin up.

This goes for everyone else, too.

That's it for tonight. Kiyo out.

I'm not in a position to spec right now. I'm aware of the recent events.

RP:

Ezreal, the failure of your action is concerning to me. I'm willing to let you have another shot, if I can think of someone more scummy. I understand the Lux+AoZ vote sway, but I'm kind of willing to believe in Lux's role reveal for now. At least for now, to place a vote in new directions...vote: ezreal

Will reevaluate before rollover.

PS: Big thanks to everyone in-thread. As much as I've been darting in and out (hard to get caught up these last odd phases), I do appreciate the work everyone's been putting into making things fun. And also having backread, I have to say I'm impressed by quite a few of you.

EDIT: EDIT Snaked by Lux

When I asked alca if any of my abilities could even sound pro-town at all in the event I had to claim in defense, she cited your game as example in favor of it being possibly pro-town. So I had heard of that and I knew I'd have to get a mafia with it or... well...

... ._.

I appreciate your words, thank you.

Lux, Alice: Welcome back!  Thanks for the posts.ヾ(＠⌒ー⌒＠)ノ

I'm waiting on a couple others to come on and address the questions directed at them before throwing in my vote for the phase.

unvote I don't have time to read the thread right now

AliceofOz VII
Luxaria II
ezreal I
Tiki the Troll I

Kiyoko vs no vote
Cure vs AliceofOz
Mr. Alice vs AliceofOz
Rasei vs Luxaria
eleni vs AliceofOz
plotstickers vs AliceofOz
Tiki the Troll vs AliceofOz
Ninfia vs Luxaria
Sammiya vs Luxaria AliceofOz
ezreal vs Luxaria
deo vs AliceofOz
AliceofOz vs Tiki the Troll
drandahl vs ezreal

drandahl wrote:
Ezreal, the failure of your action is concerning to me. I'm willing to let you have another shot, if I can think of someone more scummy. ... vote: ezreal

Hm! On the subject of someone more scummy!

drandahl, you:

• Acted last night, and your action is unaccounted for
  
• You claimed unable or unwilling to form a relationship with Kotakia
  
• You find ezreal's failed ability concerning enough to vote them, and yet we know that unless there are no more doctors in the game entirely, a protect on Kotakia clearly failed. Sammie is claiming that the investigative portion of her hide failed which is clearly not due to stun as the stun on her failed, and now you are voting someone who, if they are town and are telling the truth, claims to have one more revive left why are you voting the revive role when Kotakia just died
  

I am also in the "don't lynch the revive claim" camp. It is right next to the "don't lynch the detective claim" camp so I can stand in both at once.

For what it's worth, for slightly meta reasons I'm almost certain there are revival roles left in the game and as nobody has counterclaimed ez as revive, then either it was adawg or else who was phone.

Okay heading to work now will check back in later.